the last few days have been quite an awakening for me re: blogs/ bloggers.
see, i had this idea that bloggers would....
well, i thought blogging was a superb tool, that it would be an awesome way for people to share ideas...
that all the superfluous bullshit that usually gets in the way upon first meeting- appearance, height, weight, looks (or lack thereof) accent, tone of voice, ethnicity, style of clothing, amount of $$ in the bank, sexual orientation, etc, etc....- that all of these things which suppress the sharing of ideas would be gone, therefore the ideas themselves could be discussed.
i thought liberal bloggers would be the. ticket. to finding a better way, to changing the world & making it a better place.
alas.... the infantile behaviour of our elected representatives is not confined to polticians & their sycophants.well. it seems bloggers (in general) are stuck in some elementary time-warp (mrD says jr high, but i don't think they've progressed past passing notes"'do you like me? check yes or no") where 'winning' is the goal. winning what, no one seems to know. it's all about being in the 'in-group' & making sure people you don't like are left on the outside.
karma had a post up yesterday talking about this, sorta. "Hatred Trumps Evidence"
at least it links up in my mind.....
in it i told him:
that is what... O... 90% of those at dkos do now. convict on hearsay.i think bloggers get blinded. by blogging so much/ only hanging with other bloggers, they create their own bubble which makes them blind to the real problems/answers.
there seems to be a 'new' group there, determined to .... pick sides? be divisive? want everyone in lockstep with them & will not listen to any variation/other ideas.
i think these ppl are no better/worse than the extremists on the republican side....
extremism IS extremism after all, only a variant of the argument changes.
these ppl are all about being "right" & "winning" & much of this is based on/due to suddenly having hundreds (thousands?) of ppl reading their words & rec-ing their comments signifying agreement.... suddenly they feel like BIG fish, not realizing it's really a very tiny pond (compared to say... running for a national office)
they do not want to be contradicted.... especially not on their chosen "stage" with their cohorts around them. often i will see "let's take this to e-mail" & I realize this is because they feel close to losing the "battle" & do not want this to happen in public.
in some way, i think this is similar to how politicians are corrupted & do not remain true to their values. suddenly they are ONLY hanging out with other politicians & do not live in the real world any longer. they are more afraid of "looking bad" to other politicians than they are of keeping their integrity/values.
now. i don't claim to have the correct questions to ask, much less the answers....
but i do know that bickering & picking apart anothers words, willfully not seeing anothers point, ganging up & creating groups & lists of who's IN & who's OUT is NOT the answer to anything.
i think there must be a better way......
20 comments:
sorry it's been a few days....
i kinda got sidetracked by BS elsewhere....
& i've been spending time trying to come up with a vision, a purpose for this site. i'm still working on it.
any ideas would be greatly appreciated!
I have to agree with your assessment. I too had such hope for blogging leading to MUCH better things. Instead it turned into an echo chamber where all the people want to hear is the echo of their beliefs. Thats the main reason I've cut my blogging time down so much. Its not about helping people anymore or even trying to understand them. And a lot of them are very infantile in their handling of disagreement. One would have thought name calling would stop by adulthood, but I see people of all ages calling others names, and putting down their beliefs and ideas.
I think getting to know people first, and then diving into the political might help people see where the other is coming from, but I don't hold out much hope on it.
Hi Ria,
Terrific site you've got here. Very nice, indeed.
I think that people who care about politics have a need to hold convictions so that they can feel grounded and stable in who they are. In order to bolster that they surround themselves with like-minded people who then go about enforcing group-think.
Anyone who doesn't toe the line becomes something of a menace because he or she is challenging the very convictions needed to maintain the solidarity of the group and the political identities of those who make up the group.
Something like that, anyway.
Cheers!
gha! alma!!
you don't know how happy it makes me to see your response.
i was beginning to believe that i'm nutz... or pollyanna or something.... thinking the best of ppl & having no clue as to reality.
yes. the name-calling is just beyond ridiculous. as soon as someone disagrees w/someone else out come the play-yard taunts.
i don't know that figuring out why would do much good....
but i do have a few theories.
~ manners are no longer taught. not in school, not at home. i'm appalled in stores seeing children screaming at their parents & the parents doing nothing. we have grown a country of children who pout if they don't get their way.
much of this i lay the blame of... on having both parents working. there is no-one saying NO!
when i came up my dad was in the AF & my mom stayed at home. sometimes we were a little tight but by & large we had everything we needed.
today most people cannot afford to have mom (or dad) stay home. both parents must work. so who is raising the kids? the schools?- hell they're just trying to get kids to pass stupid bubble tests so that they can get funding. the day-cares? (in general)they don't really care about the kids as long as they don't bloody each other.
so kids are raising each other for the most part. getting a warped idea of right/wrong from tv/movies/video games.....
no effing wonder bloggers act like children- they ARE!
& kids have no-one to look up to, to emulate...pretend to be.
because i think that is how we become responsible adults....pretending our way to the next level. you know, how in kindegarten you wanted to be big, like a 4th grader. & when you finally got there you wanted to be cool like the 7th graders....& on up to adulthood.
only now.... well the 'real' adults, people who understand manners & letting each person have their say & listening to others ideas &..... well. they're all really frikkin' old now. they're grannies & great grannies... & we've never been a society that valued old people (mores the pity)
O. i don't know.
i must go think some more on this.
there must be someway out of this hellhole we've created.
we're turning into 'lord of the flies'
or wild in the streets
"In this campy film, a politician trying to manipulate the youth vote calls for lowering the voting age to 18 (voting age was still 21 at that time).
The mega-pop star he enlists to help him ups the ante at a rally with a demand that 14-year olds be given the right to vote. Under the pressure of his new hit song "14 or Fight!," the California legislature passes a compromise measure lowering the voting age to a much more sensible 15.
In the end, the youth movement takes over, people over the age of 30 are put into retirement camps where they are forced to eat food laced with LSD, and I suppose everyone lives happily ever after."
(btw~ i often tell my kids i'd like to live in jammies all day & i'm ready to get on the bus & go to the lsd camp now.)
karma!
wonderful to see you here!
yes. i see your point.
but.....
well i just don't understand group-think i guess. to me it screams mob-rule. & i refuse to be in a mob... it's way too easy to lose your footing & get trampled!!
maybe it's because of the way i was raised? i was taught to think about how others felt.... so you learn to think how your words will be taken/affect another before you open your mouth & cause another pain or embarassment....
you look ahead to try & see the consequences of your actions lest you put something in motion that will cause harm to yourself or(many?) others...
& also....
being open minded.
how can one say 'your idea is teh sux' out of hand?
shouldn't you explore an idea? ask questions? find the depth & bredth of it before dismissing it as worthless?
(& really, i've found in my experience very few ideas have absolutely NO value. there is always some little sparkly gem hidden inside)
it seems so many ppl today are so very selfish. they think nothing of the repercussions of their words & actions.
I want to go to the LSD camp too! Its been so long. Course somethimes I think I'm already there and having a bad trip.
I'm sure the anonymity (both ones own and the one you are talking to) online is cause for a lot of the name calling. I think if people were having the discussion in person they wouldn't be saying things in the same way. Can you imagine the looks and responces someone would get if they said what they say online in public? They would be shunned and chastized.
Our family units have changed so much over the years that they are almost unrecognizable from what they used to be. Families are so busy between work and all the activities kids are doing now. There almost isn't any family time. I was really lucky, I had a stay at home mom and I was also able to stay home with my kids. In the begining my hubby worked 2 jobs adding up to 70-76 hours a week, but we made it. Not everyone can do that or wants to do that, which is okay to.
You are right that parents let their kids get away fits in public all the time now. Be it the store, restaurant, drs office, wherever. And I think they kids get their way most of the time.
yes....
i too was lucky to be able to stay at home. at least until my youngest went to school.
mrD's dad let us build a house on his land so we didn't have any rent or housepayment. (we didn't actually GET the land for many many years, thus no way to borrow against it & actually build the house all at once, but....)
and mrD was self-employed, so i worked with him. & when the kids were little-bittys, i kept the books/ made appts/etc...after they got big enough they had to help too.
but yes. i think the disappearance of extended families has a LOT to do with how kids/people are today. you no longer have 12-50 people each sunday judging your child-raising &/or to discuss & bounce ideas off of. there were/are some drawbacks to this type situation but having ppl you can count on in a pinch far outweighs the problems, imo.
but maybe thats just me.
(mrD's parents lived about 150 yds away from us & we went to his gramma/grampa's nearly every sunday)
O & yes...
(i forgot this part, sorry!)
i think the anonymity is a great part of the 'bluster of bloggers'
i totally agree w/you. most ppl would never act this way in public. in fact, i've only ever seen this type behaviour late in the evening at bars!
LOL It is a lot like how people get at closing time in the bars. I hadn't thought of that!
I think you hit on another important point: "after they got big enough they had to help too." Kids don't seem to have anywhere near the chores they used to. Some of it is because of technology making things much easier; ie. dishwashers, washers, dryers, etc., but IMHO there are still chores to be done that they should have the responsibility of doing for the family. I think it ups their selfesteem and also bonds them closer to the family. I'm probably just old fashioned in this area.
In a lot of ways it's about ego.
Y'know, Laurie is working toward an MBA at SF State at the moment and she's taking a course in business negotiations.
One of the things that she was taught in the class is that people are trained, essentially, to think in terms of "positions" rather than "interests."
Say, you were to get into an argument with someone on MLW and the person that you are arguing with has staked out a position on a given topic. If you think to yourself, "What is my position versus what is my interest?" you might behave very differently from someone who is merely invested in his or her position.
If your interest is in coming to an amicable agreement, you might be willing to compromise your position, but if you only think in terms of positions you would be far more likely to simply fight it out.
Does that make sense?
Or, think of it this way, Ria.
Say that you're Mahmoud Abbas of the Palestinian Authority. You have positions and interests. Your position is that Israel must commence a total settlement freeze before you will negotiate. Your interest is in an autonomous state alongside Israel. In this case, Abbas is allowing his position to undermine the interest and it's really the interest that counts.
What a shame.
alma~
if you are old fashioned then so am i!
i think chores are a way for children to contribute to a household. it takes everybody helping to make a home run smoothly, no-one should get a free ride. i'm trying to explain this to our girl. she lives w/her boyfriend & their child, she stays at home & he works. & yet she said the other day he does his own laundry & another time that she was pissed bcause he hadn't (i think) cleaned the tub that week.
huh?
if she is staying home & he works....?
(& he does work...10-12 hrs/day 5-7 days/wk)
i dunno. when mrD was the only one w/a job i did everything in the house... laundry, cleaning, cooking sewing, bringing in wood for heat, keeping the fire going, growing the garden, canning/freezing food. it only seemed fair to me.
DAMN!! again i hit publish too soon!
i am just not used to this blogspot site!!
i too think it builds self-esteem in children. & teaches them to be responsible. and to have pride in a job well done.
i had 'regular' chores for the kids to do. stuff that was just part of living in the house.... setting the table, doing dishes, feeding the dogs/chickens, picking up their toys, bringing dirty clothes to laundry rm....
& then there was an 'extras' list....vacuuming, cleaning windows, cleaning the bathroom, etc.... stuff they could do to make $ BUT all their regular stuff had to be done or they wouldn't get paid for extras.
in my mind it's how you train children to be responsible adults, accomplish the tasks set before them in a set amount of time & keep up with what they've done.
Karma~
i agree. there is a boatload of ego in it. i think i touched on that in my reply to you (if i didn't, i meant to!)
i like your... idea? about positions/interests. i think that is very true.
& maybe its the basis of the difference between dems & reps?
seems to me reps see only interests. they have vested interests in this or that issue.
while dems take positions on this or that issue.
and to some extent i think that can be extrapolated to the problems recently seen at GOS. one side has a vested interest in HCR & the other has a position on it.
very good point karma. excellent in fact. thank you! & plz thank laurie for me!
♥~
(heh. my lil hearts work here!)
Ego's a huge part of it...and anonymity too....
I try to stay out of the cat fights. Some of my favorite reading at Orange comes from the teaching diaries (I try to check dKos University every Saturday but missed it before work today), and BlueJerseyMom has a great post on the rec list right now about her archaeological trip to western Egypt.
But if I'm reading a political diary, I ignore the vitriolic messages ganging up on the diarist. There's always one or two people who are just there to stir up trouble, it seems (& after a while, if they repeatedly do that, I just ignore every comment they write). If the diary really IS a p.o.s., then...back-button out of there!
Does that make me old-fashioned?
BTW, working in retail, I get to see more than my fair share of bratty kids. Discipline -- or just leaving the little monsters at home -- would be nice to see more often.
I sure agree Youff. I've gotten to where I hardly read any comments at the orange in political diaries.
Also agree about leaving the brats at home. I remember when my kids were certain ages leaving them at home, or leaving from places when they didn't behave.
And yeah, I think it makes you old fashioned too. Imagine expecting people to be respectful and writing things for people to learn and discuss with an honest intent.
As for Orange, I would say that my tenure is coming to a close.
I feel about as alienated from that community as is possible and, yet, still participate.
It can't last, tho, which is fine.
Orange is toxic.
Its hard to stay there Karmafish. Especially if you try to communicate in the comments there.
I've found I'm happier just lurking and reading the diaries I think will be interesting. If I open one and think asshat right away, I get out of there as soon as possible.
The orange always seems to go around in a cycle. It will get better again and then worse.
karma~
i hardly go to orange anymore.
when i do it's only a few of the community diaries. the GUS ppl were very helpful to me while i was quitting smoking.
sensible shoes has a writers diary i try to read & the sat. morning diaries- gardening, home repair.... but i just read those. the few times i've commented i get some recs but no one replies/engages. so i quit commenting. it seems a closed clique. no newcomers allowed (even if i've been there since mid-2005)
the politics- i just read some diaries. the bickering & infighting just pisses me off so. it's why i (mostly)left DD.
i get most of my news from raw story. they seem to have everything first. & i read mishima every morning at DD- he does a great worldwide round-up.
Ria, Alma, karmafish:
Your points are very well-made. But I came here directly from the Orange rescue: you can't beat a series like dsteffan's How Regulation Came to Be.
And HinH has a great photo diary on the rec list.
And most of the top economics writers pique my interest (although gjohnsit seems to have left for dd, where I try to keep up with [his?] posts).
So I'm with Alma: I won't bash either of those sites, but I pick and choose whom I'm reading, and if my reaction is "asshat" I back-button outta there.
Yes, the bickering is annoying; it is one of the things that gives me that "asshat" reaction. But it's no worse, to me, than the backstabbing that regularly goes on in the business world. I'd rather someone wrote, Youff, you're an idiot than tried to undermine me behind my back.
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